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View Full Version : GPL licence and Mosets further developments


teddy
06-29-2007, 11:34 PM
Hi, I'm stating this question to request an official response from the team regarding the recent GPL riot among joomla professional developers. Many of them (namely the jcda) are already moving to Mambo as a platform: look at this thread and its links:
http://jcd-a.org/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,28/topic,326.0/
I think there's a lot of interest about future programs from mosets development group, can we have any sort of statement? Do you have plans about joomla 1.5 or mambo 4.7?
Thank you in advance!

Igorbimbich
06-30-2007, 06:54 AM
A lot of customers and developers would like to know what are your next steps!!!
Please, give us an hint: stick with you or find another solution?

BillyParadise
07-03-2007, 06:34 AM
Is mosets still in business? No release in 9-10 months for either package...

tradewise
07-05-2007, 03:30 PM
I've looked at the arguments put forward by Joomla regarding GPL and I'm not sure if this decision would apply to Mosets, but clarification by Mosets would be appreciated.

The way I see it and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that all the Who-Ha is about developers who are encrypting code, whereas Mosets products are not encrypted and users who purchase the software are able to edit to their hearts content so therefore there should not be any problem!.

However, the problem for my part (and others) is that I'm using Mosets in conjunction with MamboCharge which is encrypted and in my situation one relies on the other. Would this then make my site/s in violation of the Joomla's GPL.

With all this debarkle, I'm now also wondering will the majority of commercial developers move back to Mambo? And will Mosets follow their lead?

On a closing note I seem to remember that when Joomla forked from Mambo that the name "Joomla" was chosen because it meant "All Together". It seems now however that Joomla's core developers are hell bent on breaking it apart. - Just my observations!.

Regards to all Steve!!!.

web-jive
07-05-2007, 09:34 PM
The debate goes beyond encrypting the code. The Joomla core team stance now is that if you write a product for Joomla and it uses any of the Joomla API's, your product is now considered GPL licensed.

The problem with that scenario is it wraps the viral nature of the GPL license around your product meaning anyone can take (I will call it steal), create a fork and do what they want.

The reason I have purchased 100's of dollars worth of Mosets Tree and HP licenses is because I can edit the code and the only way to keep it available is to keep paying for it. That's ONLY fair to Mosets.

While I applaud the FOSS community and the openess of it, the GPL makes it hard for a small developer to earn a real living if they can not protect their IP which they have spent countless hours on creating.

Do I like encryption? No. If there is a commercial product that does what I want without it, I go that route. If not, I suck it up anyway and move on. For the devs that use encryption, if I have a problem, I hold them accountable for fixing the bug. The paid/open code I debug myself (it's quicker) and send any patches I have back to the devs to keep improving the product.

It's simple economics. I make a living off Joomla and the commercial products I use therefore it's only fair the developers of these products make a living as well.

I don't know why the core team have all of a sudden been bitten by the purist GPL bug when everything was going so well! The way I see it is if they keep up this stance, developers will swing back to Mambo (this only makes economic sense since your products remain viable) and Joomla will become another has-been product. I've seen it happen to many times in the past 6 years of working with CMS's. I was in the same situation with XOOPS (I was one of the original core team members) and when we made the decision to use an MVC model with strict OOP based code, we lost a LOT of developers.

It only takes on small wrong move for people to abandon a product. This would truly be an irony if Mambo gets the spotlight again! Either way, I will be watching and use either product where it better matches my customers needs.

I'm not particurally excited about Joomla 1.5 becuase 1.x is working really well for my clients and my business.

Just a some of my thoughts..

Regards,
Eric

tradewise
07-06-2007, 06:27 AM
Eric,

Thanks for the enlightenment, I wasn't aware that the GPL issue went that deep. I too wholly support commercial development and also make a living from building websites. Without these components I'd be better off going back to simple dreamweaver static sites.

Given your comments though, in Joomlas eyes I would therefore pesume that if I modified something in the GPL code that made my site (or my clients) function better the oppositions site, then I would be obligated to release my findings to all including those with whom I wanted or needed to get the upper hand on....... That's fair - NOT.

Is is not strange though that Joomla's own extensions site runs on Mosets Tree (hmmm let's shoot ourselves in the foot here!) and commercial components are still today being actively promoted via the extensions site. Whilst Joomla makes their stance on GPL isn't it hipicritical to actively promote extensions that are commercially licenced?.

Surely Mosets had Joomla agree to their licence to use the tree on the Extensions site, and given Joomlas recent comments, wouldn't there be something in their comments that would be a voilation of the agreed licence, in which case Mosets should revoke the license and demand the software's immediate withdrawl from service.

As interesting as it is, we can all debate this GPL issue till the cows come home but the fact remains that we need to know how Mosets stand on this. Will Mosets:

1. Continue the development of their products with Joomla?
2. Cease development based on Joomla and consentrate back on Mambo?
3. Cease developent full stop?

Regards to all
Steve!!!

web-jive
07-06-2007, 06:57 AM
Given your comments though, in Joomlas eyes I would therefore pesume that if I modified something in the GPL code that made my site (or my clients) function better the oppositions site, then I would be obligated to release my findings to all including those with whom I wanted or needed to get the upper hand on....... That's fair - NOT.

The only time you have to give code back in GPL terms is if you plan to redistribute the code. This leaves Joomla in the clear with the Mosets tree component, especially with their custom mods.

Since they aren't redistributing it (e.g. MTree, making it available for download), they are not bound by GPL and don't have to fork over their mods.

As far as Mosets, I think they will leave what they have in tact since OSM isn't threatening legal action against commercial devs. They will leave that to the community. Hopefully other commercial devs will tell OSM to kiss their collective butts and keep things status quo.

teddy
07-14-2007, 01:40 AM
Still no response from mosets team,who knows what's happening?
I just discovered they've adapted HP to elxis, a CMS very similar to Joomla and Mambo...
http://www.elxis.org/index.php?option=com_mtree&task=viewlink&link_id=59&Itemid=138

xos
07-16-2007, 12:55 PM
I don't know why the core team have all of a sudden been bitten by the purist GPL bug when everything was going so well!

I totally agree here, Joomla! is doing amazingly well and here they go and do that!


The way I see it is if they keep up this stance, developers will swing back to Mambo (this only makes economic sense since your products remain viable) and Joomla will become another has-been product.

I think Joomla!, should they keep their word, will loose some commercial addons. But - How many commercial vs GPL/non-commercial addons are there? The GPL/non-commercial ones completely flood the paid addons. So, I don't think Joomla! is looking to loose big here, they'll most likely loose small.

And...yes, these 3PDs will probably move to Mambo or Elxis (which is just another fork of Mambo from a few ex-Mambos from their Greek community, in other words Elxis came to life from more people dissatisfied with Mambo.). Good luck to those moving to Mambo, they'll need alot of it!

Or...maybe they'll move to, yet another fork of the Mambo code - Aliro. Again, looks like, more people dissatisfied with Mambo.

All these forks, have to tell you something. People are not happy with Mambo.

I for one will not move backwards, if Mosets moves to Mambo so be it. I'll find an alternative and stick with Joomla! which has amazing ongoing dev work.

dknight
07-19-2007, 10:37 AM
Hi guys,

Here's our stance regarding the recent GPL annoucement made by the core team. We plan to continue our business around Joomla! and have no plans to move our development to other CMS.

Because of the nature of our extensions (Mosets Tree and Mosets Hot Property), we believe we can come up with a solution to be in compliance with the GPL license. Such solution would require refactoring of our codebase to separate certain functions and classes. However this can not be done overnight and we expect to do this in the future version of our extensions.

What does this means to our customers? Not much actually, other than the assurance that we will continue working on our components. Eric (web-jive) explains it quite clearly regarding the GPL license. I'll add a few points here:


If you're using licensed copy of Mosets Tree or Mosets Hot Property now, you're perfectly fine.
You as a user of Mosets extensions are not violating any license and nobody can take legal action in this regard.
Mosets Tree and Mosets Hot Property are not licensed under the GPL license. You can not redistribute the code and nobody can demand any source codes from your copy of Mosets extensions.

Reply to this thread if you have any questions.

teddy
07-19-2007, 07:27 PM
Any roadmap available, or a simple timeline?
Can you give us hints about features coming in the next versions?
Anyway, if you've found a way to operate according to Joomla core team's requirement about GPL, please let other 3PDs know how to solve their riddles.
Compliance is a big problem at the moment...
Thanks and regards,
Guido

dknight
07-19-2007, 10:04 PM
Hi Guido,

No roadmap or timeline available unfortunately, but we expect to announce an update to Mosets Tree soonish. Stay tuned.

Anyway, if you've found a way to operate according to Joomla core team's requirement about GPL, please let other 3PDs know how to solve their riddles.
Compliance is a big problem at the moment...First of all, I'm not a lawyer. Let's take Mosets Tree as an example. It's a pretty complex extension and for most parts most of the core codes written for Mosets Tree can be taken out, made as a library and technically implement a similar solution to other framework. Because of this, we are free to use a proprietary license for this library. On the other hand, files which are dependent on Joomla will use a GPL-compatible(ie:LGPL) license. That's basically the idea.

teddy
07-20-2007, 03:57 PM
Ok, so it depends on the complexity and structure of the component...
I'll try to spread this solution, maybe someone did not take it into account.
Actually a real estate (and a directory one, of course) framework would be a boost for your components' adoption, like community builder it could become sort of standard for the community beating competitors!
There are already a lot of plugins and modifications available for both your products...

gray
07-20-2007, 04:27 PM
I haven't read all info available on Joomla's forum around the issue, but I still have a question.

Technically, it's possible to separate "my code" from Joomla's one. But, still, if I use $database->setQuery .... (in other words I use Joomla's database library) in my own code, is it a violation of any license or not?

dknight
07-20-2007, 06:44 PM
AFAIK, using their API means a particular file is dependent on Joomla, therefore is a derivative work and should be released under GPL-compatible license. A possible workaround is to create a wrapper class around $database and licensed it under a less restrictive license, eg. LGPL and call the functions through the wrapper class.

xos
07-23-2007, 02:00 AM
Hi guys,

Here's our stance regarding the recent GPL annoucement made by the core team. We plan to continue our business around Joomla! and have no plans to move our development to other CMS.

Because of the nature of our extensions (Mosets Tree and Mosets Hot Property), we believe we can come up with a solution to be in compliance with the GPL license. Such solution would require refactoring of our codebase to separate certain functions and classes. However this can not be done overnight and we expect to do this in the future version of our extensions.

What does this means to our customers? Not much actually, other than the assurance that we will continue working on our components. Eric (web-jive) explains it quite clearly regarding the GPL license. I'll add a few points here:


If you're using licensed copy of Mosets Tree or Mosets Hot Property now, you're perfectly fine.
You as a user of Mosets extensions are not violating any license and nobody can take legal action in this regard.
Mosets Tree and Mosets Hot Property are not licensed under the GPL license. You can not redistribute the code and nobody can demand any source codes from your copy of Mosets extensions.

Reply to this thread if you have any questions.

Thank you for that clarification. We really like your component and were hating the possibility of having to find a replacement.

Looking forward to your future releases.

All the best,
Xos